What Does the New Testament Say about Homosexuality?

How effective are Christian apologetics?There are two primary places in the New Testament where homosexuality is a condemned practice.

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–10).

We’ve been here before.

The early Christians weren’t Christian. They were Jews, and they followed the Scripture (what we call the Old Testament). As I noted in the last post on this subject, Leviticus categorizes homosexuality as a ritual abomination—that is, something that’s bad by definition, not by its nature. Leviticus puts gay sex in the same category as eating a ham sandwich or sowing a field with two different crops.

Christians have rejected all of the Old Testament’s ritual abominations (animal sacrifices, kosher laws, and so on), and they can’t now come back to retrieve a few that they’re nostalgic for.

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine (1 Tim. 1:9–10).

Ritual abominations like homosexuality are mixed in this list with actual crimes such as murder. This tells us nothing new, so it isn’t much of an attack. As an aside, however, it may be worth wondering who wrote this book. Though its first line says that it’s from Paul, this book is widely considered to be pseudepigraphical. So we have a book of unknown authorship with a wide range of possible dates of authorship. Though it’s part of the canon, that doesn’t make it much of an authority.

If we’re to find moral advice in these two books, let’s look at a few other things they say.

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church (1 Cor. 14:34–5).

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner (1 Tim. 2:11–14).

For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man (1 Cor. 11:8–9).

(Yeah, it’s about time we got some old-fashioned Bible values back in society! Let’s correct society’s lax approach toward women.)

Let me suggest another source of advice. Romans 14 recommends that we be flexible about others’ ways. If someone has more or fewer restriction about what he eats, for example, just let it slide. As Ambrose said, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” Maybe this advice applies to homosexuality as well.

I’ve heard some Christians say that we should treat homosexuals with sympathy. This sounds like giving sympathy to those pathetic individuals cursed with left-handedness in society.

The Catholic Church held for over a thousand years that being left handed made you a servant of the Devil and that anything left-handed was evil. (Source)

Sympathy might have been the best response in a world that saw lefties as evil or demon possessed, but society has gone beyond that. Left-handedness is irrelevant; no one cares. We don’t give sympathy because none is necessary. Shouldn’t that be the goal with homosexuals, another of society’s minorities?

While I know this sympathy is meant as a generous sentiment, it doesn’t come across that way. “Hate the sin; love the sinner” may be as distasteful for the homosexual as “I love you, but you’re going to hell” aimed at the atheist. In either situation, being told that you deserve an eternity of torture in hell for living your life in a way that is honest to who you are and that hurts no one else is simply offensive.

The Secret Diary of Steve Jobs delivers a much-needed smackdown to modern-day Pharisees and Levites. It makes clear that the moral of the parable of the Good Samaritan isn’t “help people in need.” First, a bit of background: the Pharisee and the Levite in the story were ritually clean as they walked past the beaten man lying in the dirt. They avoided him because touching blood or a dead person caused ritual uncleanness. But the Torah didn’t forbid touching such things; it simply stated that you were ritually unclean after doing so and had to cleanse yourself. The Secret Diary concludes: “Jesus, your big hero, was saying that if you have some rule or conventional wisdom that causes you to do harm to people, violate the goddamn rule.”

Jesus broke lots of rules—going postal on the money changers, harvesting grain and healing on the Sabbath. Remember “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”? The prohibition against homosexuality is another that the Christian needs to break.

You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image
when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
— Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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27 thoughts on “What Does the New Testament Say about Homosexuality?

  1. Both the church at Corinth and at Ephesus (where Timothy was) had a large proportion of (mainly Greek) Gentiles in their midst. In the Greco-Roman society of the time, homosexual activity was likely to take place in one of two forms – either as a form of pagan worship, or in a high-power-differential pederastic relationship.

    By the way, muddying the water with verses about the role of women (without any context, by the way) doesn’t strengthen your argument re homosexuality. Conversely it weakens it – what has the role of women to do with homosexuality, apart from the fact that you think the Bible speaks wrongly on both of them?

    • Conversely it weakens it – what has the role of women to do with homosexuality, apart from the fact that you think the Bible speaks wrongly on both of them?

      I think the main point here is that Christians in America would never think of enacting laws to enforce these other ideals.

      If Christians want to ban homosexuals from their churches, that’s their business, but Christians have no business trying to enact laws that persecute homosexuals outside the church.

      • I’m a little confused here. I thought the post was about what the Bible said about homosexuality, but you are talking about Christians wanting to enact laws regarding homosexuality. While this did happen in the past, those that are calling for homosexuality to be made illegal now are in a small minority in most Western countries.

        I just don’t get your point?

        • I thought the post was about what the Bible said about homosexuality, but you are talking about Christians wanting to enact laws regarding homosexuality.

          Bob S is actually the one arguing what the Bible says about homosexuality. While I think Christians are inconsistent, I actually think the Bible did condemn homosexuality, as well as hundreds of other things that no one cares about anymore.

          While this did happen in the past, those that are calling for homosexuality to be made illegal now are in a small minority in most Western countries.

          I’m not talking about making homosexuality illegal, but about enacting laws regarding homosexuality… like banning homosexual marriages.

          I just don’t get your point?

          Would you ever consider enacting laws that enforced other religious ideals like not working on Sundays or prohibiting certain foods?

          My point is that the only reason people are opposed to homosexual marriage is for religious reasons. If you have any reasons that are not religious, I’d love to hear them.

      • Christians are not persecuting anyone. You are wrongly informed or deceived. I care about the soul of the human being, not their sexuality. The term Marriage is ordained by God not gov’t. I think your problem is with gov’t. Only God can sanction marriage and changing the meaning through gov’t doesn’t ordain it. I think you are the one that is creating your own god. There is absolute truth. I pray you find it. God Speed.

        • J:

          Christians are not persecuting anyone.

          Well, at least some of them are standing in the way of people who love each other and want to get married. (Seems to me that there are better ways to spend their time, particularly from a PR standpoint.)

          The term Marriage is ordained by God not gov’t.

          Let’s be clear about what grounds laws here. Religion in the US has the freedom it has thanks to the US Constitution.

          Only God can sanction marriage and changing the meaning through gov’t doesn’t ordain it.

          God is cool with polygamy. I gotta disagree there.

          There is absolute truth.

          Oh? I’ve seen no evidence.

          BTW, the blog is ended here. Its new home is:
          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/

          You’re welcome to come over and participate there.

  2. Bob said:

    “The early Christians weren’t Christian. They were Jews, and they followed the Scripture (what we call the Old Testament). As I noted in the last post on this subject, Leviticus categorizes homosexuality as a ritual abomination—that is, something that’s bad by definition, not by its nature. Leviticus puts gay sex in the same category as eating a ham sandwich or sowing a field with two different crops.

    Christians have rejected all of the Old Testament’s ritual abominations (animal sacrifices, kosher laws, and so on), and they can’t now come back to retrieve a few that they’re nostalgic for.”

    Another bogus fallacy..

    From the beginning of God’s revelation in Genesis through the incarnation and then the NT just as the existence of God is presupposed so is the creation of Male and Female in the image of God..And as God is neither man or female but is “One in being” so is the coming together in marriage of a male and female as they become one in flesh..Complete. This is presupposed throughout the OT and the NT.. And very important to remember we are told to honor our Mother and Father. We are told husbands love your wives. The Bible presupposes heterosexual relationships.

    In Lev.18, and 20. (which Bob fails to read the begining or mention) that when speaking of Homosexuality Israel is not to do what the Pagans does, and if they do that ( homosexuality) God will vomit them out of His mouth..These are universal prohibitions. Not ritual. And not the same category as purity laws for Israel only.

    We have the purity laws that are for Israel only: to separate them from other nations. These have nothing to do with the universal prohibitions like Murder and Homosexuality and bestiality and sexual perversions..These were forbidden for the Pagans..If it is forbidden to the Pagans it is forbidden to All people it is universal.

    Bob fails to read the beginning of the context of Lev. 18-20..

    So as usual Bob has no idea what he is talking about.

    I think Bob is trying to make us think homosexuality is not a sin. Sorry Bob it is a Universal prohibition of God’s moral law..

    God presupposes male and female as one… Any other sexual relationship is sinful and perverted, and none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

    • These were forbidden for the Pagans..If it is forbidden to the Pagans it is forbidden to All people it is universal.

      Bob Calvan, I’d like to hear your opinion on something.

      Do you think this Biblical prohibition on homosexuality should be recognized and enforced by the United States government? Why or why not.

    • Bob C:

      I don’t know what to say except to encourage you to reread the post. The concerns you raise seem to have been addressed there.

  3. Do you think this Biblical prohibition on homosexuality should be recognized and enforced by the United States government? Why or why not.

    Nope.
    Homosexuality is a sinful act against God. And the U..S is not a Chrsitian nation and is not under a Chrsitian theocracy.

    • To BobC,

      At least you seem to acknowledge that homosexuality harms no one else than your postulated god. Why God should be harmed by homosexuality is beyond me.

    • I don’t know what “Bible” you are reading, but these quotes are not in the King James Verson. You are going to be held responsable for your lies.

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  7. It seems to me that your entire post does nothing in the way of providing any actual argument for why homosexuality should be accepted by the church. Your approach to this whole post is not to provide any real facts but to cast doubt on the facts that are very clearly laid out for us in scripture. Your approach, by the way, is not a new one. It’s been used since the beginning of time.

    Gen 3:1- Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the Woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?

    If the only way you have found to justify your sin is to cast doubt on what God DID say, and then to make assumptions based on things He DIDN’T say, then I would heavily consider the fact that maybe the serpent has paid you visit, and served you up a big piece of forbidden fruit to enjoy.

    • Thanks for your comment.

      It seems to me that your entire post does nothing in the way of providing any actual argument for why homosexuality should be accepted by the church.

      If the church is trying to deal appropriately with people, it should ignore someone’s sexuality just like most Christians today ignore someone’s skin color or physical disability.

      cast doubt on the facts that are very clearly laid out for us in scripture. Your approach, by the way, is not a new one. It’s been used since the beginning of time.

      Oh? Then confront the arguments directly and tell me why they fail.

      Gen 3:1- Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the Woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?

      This is a tangent, but the serpent comes out as the hero in this Genesis story. God said that you’d die right away after eating the apple and the serpent said the opposite. Who was right?

      And why judge Adam and Eve for a moral transgression when they didn’t have moral knowledge?!

      If the only way you have found to justify your sin …

      What sin? I’m not homosexual.

      I would heavily consider the fact that maybe the serpent has paid you visit, and served you up a big piece of forbidden fruit to enjoy.

      You mean like Reason? That is pretty darn satisfying.

      • Bob S. -”If the church is trying to deal appropriately with people, it should ignore someone’s sexuality just like most Christians today ignore someone’s skin color or physical disability.”

        For starters, the Bible never identifies skin color as being sinful and secondly, I think we could both agree it’s perfectly appropriate to speak the truth in love. The church is designed as a place to come together as a body of believers for the purpose of gaining biblical truth through solid bible based teaching and to grow in the knowledge of who God is and how we can grow in our relationship with him. The church is not designed to be an apathetic gathering place for people who want to stay just as they are, it’s designed to be a place of encouragement for people who truly want to know Jesus. If God were something I made up in my own mind, then I guess I could change him as I changed, I could mold Him into someone who could care less about the sin in my life. But since we ARE dealing with the VERY REAL, and one and ONLY, God, I don’t have that luxury. If I try to pretend he’s anything other than who he says he is, I’m worshiping an idol, a god made up of the things I would like him to be, I’m not worshiping the one true God.

        Bob S. – “Oh? Then confront the arguments directly and tell me why they fail.”

        I believe those who posted previously did a pretty good job of addressing that already. No need to bore you with the repetition of their comments.

        Bob S. – “This is a tangent, but the serpent comes out as the hero in this Genesis story. God said that you’d die right away after eating the apple and the serpent said the opposite. Who was right?

        Actually no, it just says that they will “surely die”. And of course they did, so as usual, God was right. Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree, death did not exist. Now we all live with that consequence, so I suppose if you’re the kind of person who enjoys watching people go through the pain of losing a loved one, then yeah, the serpent would be your hero in this story.

        Bob S. -”And why judge Adam and Eve for a moral transgression when they didn’t have moral knowledge?!”

        They didn’t have a need for moral knowledge because God created a world where there was no sin. However, there was always choice. Just like you and I, Adam and Eve always had free will. God’s hope for them, is the same as his hope is for me and you, that we will choose to trust Him enough that if he says “No” then that’s all we need to know. The serpent whispered words of doubt and mistrust into Eve’s ear, and she gave into it. The serpent is still slithering around today, whispering words of doubt and mistrust, and even believers don’t always recognize it until it’s too late. Sometimes he’s blatant and up front, and sometimes he takes hold of a prideful blogger, who is very secure in his own “wisdom”. A sitting duck that the deceiver can easily manipulate into righting a blog that whispers words of distrust and rejection in Gods Holy word.

        Bob S. – “What sin? I’m not homosexual.”

        Relax Bob, I wasn’t accusing you of being homosexual. That statement goes for any sin.

        • Stacy:

          the Bible never identifies skin color as being sinful

          There’s plenty of racism in the Bible. “They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them” (Ezra 9:2). See also Neh. 13:1–3.

          “No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation.” (Deut. 23:3)

          The famous legal case that culminated in the Supreme Court decision Loving v. Virginia was originally grounded on biblical principles: “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”

          If one wants biblical justification for one’s racism, it’s easy to find.

          If God were something I made up in my own mind, then I guess I could change him as I changed, I could mold Him into someone who could care less about the sin in my life. But since we ARE dealing with the VERY REAL, and one and ONLY, God, I don’t have that luxury.

          People change churches all the time. They don’t do it to hammer their faith to take the proper shape of the Bible; rather, they do it to find a church that preaches to them what they want to hear. They go God shopping.

          Or consider the explosion of different flavors of Christianity in America. We Americans are very inventive—Christian Science, JW, LDS, 7th Day Adventists, Pentecostal, Holiness movement, Shakers, cults like Jim Jones or David Koresh, and on and on.

          I believe those who posted previously did a pretty good job of addressing that already. No need to bore you with the repetition of their comments.

          That’s thoughtful of you, but since I obviously wasn’t convinced, you can pick up the discussion where it was left off and point out better arguments.

          [Gen. 2:17] just says that they will “surely die”. And of course they did, so as usual, God was right.

          Nope—God was wrong. This is just spin doctoring to avoid an uncomfortable biblical error. The NET Bible admits the error and discusses nonobvious interpretations that Christians must grope for. It says about “when you eat from it”:

          Or “in the very day, as soon as.” If one understands the expression to have this more precise meaning, then the following narrative presents a problem, for the man does not die physically as soon as he eats from the tree. In this case one may argue that spiritual death is in view. If physical death is in view here, there are two options to explain the following narrative: (1) The following phrase “You will surely die” concerns mortality which ultimately results in death (a natural paraphrase would be, “You will become mortal”), or (2) God mercifully gave man a reprieve, allowing him to live longer than he deserved.

          Stacy says:

          I suppose if you’re the kind of person who enjoys watching people go through the pain of losing a loved one, then yeah, the serpent would be your hero in this story.

          I’m the kind of person who likes the truth.

          [Adam and Steve] didn’t have a need for moral knowledge because God created a world where there was no sin.

          That’s not the point. Giving a moral problem to people who had no moral knowledge and then punishing them when they failed a test they couldn’t possibly pass is ridiculous.

          Would you give the same moral test to a 1-year-old and expect any other result?

  8. Bob S. – “Stacy:

    the Bible never identifies skin color as being sinful

    There’s plenty of racism in the Bible. “They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them” (Ezra 9:2). See also Neh. 13:1–3.

    “No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation.” (Deut. 23:3)”

    Yes, God called them to separate themselves from the nations around them, but not because their skin color was sinful, because they’re culture was unacceptable to God They did not worship the one true God but had many gods and many idols. When God commanded that they not marry outside of their race it was for the purpose of preserving the faith not the race. Ultimately some of them did choose to ignore God’s command and chose to take brides of other races. The result of that was idol worship being brought into the Jewish community which lead to a whole host of issues and struggles that they never would have faced had they obeyed God’s command.
    God’s goal was to keep the faith intact and pure because from this holy race of people the Messiah would be born. Christianity has no restraints concerning race, the NT warns against marrying an unbeliever, which is equivalent to what God was trying to prevent in the OT.

    Bob S. – People change churches all the time. They don’t do it to hammer their faith to take the proper shape of the Bible; rather, they do it to find a church that preaches to them what they want to hear. They go God shopping.

    Maybe, or maybe you are just judging them. Maybe they just felt called elsewhere? However since you are a professed unbeliever that’s not really a point we can discuss because it is not a concept that would make since to you. So, I’ll move on.

    Bob S. – “Or consider the explosion of different flavors of Christianity in America. We Americans are very inventive—Christian Science, JW, LDS, 7th Day Adventists, Pentecostal, Holiness movement, Shakers, cults like Jim Jones or David Koresh, and on and on.”

    Yes, consider it. If it were your goal to deceive and confuse people out of being able to clearly see the truth, how would you approach it? My 4 year old has a pre-school book that we study. One of the activities in the book is to show him a picture on one page, and then on the other page show him 4 similar yet not identical pictures and the goal is to find the one that is identical.
    In that activity, my son relies on his sight to find the right answer. When it comes to spiritual matters, if you don’t have the Holy Spirit, that is only received through your salvation in Christ, then you are choosing blindly.

    2 Tim 3:1-5
    But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    Bob S. – That’s not the point. Giving a moral problem to people who had no moral knowledge and then punishing them when they failed a test they couldn’t possibly pass is ridiculous.

    He didn’t give them a “moral problem” It was their faith in God’s goodness that was tested, not their morals. They failed and because of that, all mankind was given the consequence of death. But God always had a plan to redeem us from that death sentence. It was fulfilled in Jesus.

    You say you like the truth. I don’t know you, but I believe you when you say that. I’m not a biblical scholar, I could never give you the kind of banter that would change your mind on something that I have only come to discover through my simple faith in the redeeming power of Jesus. Though I too am a lover of truth, I get up every morning to seek it. In those moments, as I sit in the presence of the Holy Spirit, I find the truth. But for you, that is not a valid statement, because you have not sat in that same place. I would not expect you to understand where I’m coming from when I say that.

    Here, in a nutshell, is my thought on all of this: Is it a sin to be in a homosexual relationship? Yes. Can you be a homosexual and be a Christian? Yes. The criteria for salvation is 100% about Christ, our sin is inconsequential when it comes to our salvation. He died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice – The End! Last Word! If you have accepted Christ as your savior the law no longer determines your life or death.
    And to answer the question that I know you will pose in response to my last statement: If I believe that you can be a Christian and a homosexual, where lies the problem?

    The answer: Freedom.
    When Jesus died on the cross, it was not just so we would have something to look forward to when we leave this earth, it was so we could live in freedom while still on this earth. As a Christian, if you are involved in a homosexual relationship, you aren’t walking in the freedom Christ died for, you are choosing to wear the shackles of your sin. It’s like a person who has committed no choosing to go to prison.

    There is much more I could say on this subject Bob S. but I think I should stop here because I am worn out!

    Enjoy your weekend Mr. Bob!

    • Stacy:

      Yes, God called them to separate themselves from the nations around them, but not because their skin color was sinful, because they’re culture was unacceptable to God

      Israel was God’s chosen tribe. Other tribes had their own gods; why should Yahweh be worried about them? Of course, as Judaism (and then Christianity) evolved, the attitude changed, but during the OT time, other tribes could fend for themselves–Yahweh was spoken for.

      Sounds like racism to me. Or tribalism or jingoism, if you prefer.

      When God commanded that they not marry outside of their race it was for the purpose of preserving the faith not the race.

      So it’s OK then? Racism in the service of religion isn’t racism? I imagine that the Mormons might’ve made that argument when they had racist practices, but no one else was buying it.

      The result of that was idol worship being brought into the Jewish community which lead to a whole host of issues and struggles that they never would have faced had they obeyed God’s command.

      And how would this thinking play today? “No son of mine is going to marry a Jew!” (or a Mormon or a Muslim or an atheist or whatever).

      I don’t think this translates well into modern culture. And if it’s wrong now, why would it have been right then?

      Maybe they just felt called elsewhere?

      I’m simply trying to evaluate their actions through Christian eyes. If you shop around for a god that suits you, that sounds an awful lot like picking a convenient god rather than seeing God for how the Bible portrays him.

      When it comes to spiritual matters, if you don’t have the Holy Spirit, that is only received through your salvation in Christ, then you are choosing blindly.

      Sure, that … or the whole thing is just made up, like Shinto, Mormonism, Hinduism, and all the other religions.

      It was their faith in God’s goodness that was tested, not their morals.

      Knowing that it’s wrong to disobey is a moral conclusion. They had no morals (not having eating of the Tree yet). So they were given a test they couldn’t possibly pass.

      (As if God could’ve been surprised by the end result anyway.)

      They failed and because of that, all mankind was given the consequence of death.

      We’re punished because of Adam’s error??

      “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16).

      But God always had a plan to redeem us from that death sentence.

      Then I don’t think much of his plan. Doesn’t apply to me.

      In those moments, as I sit in the presence of the Holy Spirit, I find the truth.

      Why search for truth within Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Buddhism or any of a thousand other religions?

      But for you, that is not a valid statement, because you have not sat in that same place.

      Which is what the Hindu or Buddhist is saying about both of us right now, as he shakes his head in sad dismay at our foolishness.

      Or maybe he is the foolish one.

      Is it a sin to be in a homosexual relationship?

      Why? Homosexual activity is only a ritual abomination (that is, it’s not something that is wrong in and of itself), and the sacrifice of Jesus freed us from all of the ritual requirements.

      He died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice

      This is a complete tangent, but why is our redemption opt-in? That is, we don’t opt-in to take on Adam’s sin; we get it automatically. Then why don’t we get that sin removed automatically as well?

      As a Christian, if you are involved in a homosexual relationship, you aren’t walking in the freedom Christ died for

      You still haven’t argued why gaiety should be considered a sin.

      • Bob S. – “Israel was God’s chosen tribe. Other tribes had their own gods; why should Yahweh be worried about them? Of course, as Judaism (and then Christianity) evolved, the attitude changed, but during the OT time, other tribes could fend for themselves–Yahweh was spoken for.

        Sounds like racism to me. Or tribalism or jingoism, if you prefer.”

        Again, He didn’t want their idol worship seeping in and mucking up the waters. It was a temptation that He didn’t want his chosen ones to face. It can’t be called racism if it’s not about race. It was a matter of faith in the one true God, not race.

        Bob S. – “And how would this thinking play today? “No son of mine is going to marry a Jew!” (or a Mormon or a Muslim or an atheist or whatever).
        I don’t think this translates well into modern culture. And if it’s wrong now, why would it have been right then?”

        It wasn’t wrong then and it’s not wrong now. Yes, as a Christian, I want my children to marry within their own faith. I could care less about what race they marry, I want them to marry a Christian. If you were to ask a member of any of the above mentioned religions, they would tell you the same thing. So they are no more offended by my desire for my kids to marry a Christian than I would be by them wanting their children to marry within their faith.

        2 Corinthians 6:14-16
        Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belialb? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

        Bob S. – I’m simply trying to evaluate their actions through Christian eyes. If you shop around for a god that suits you, that sounds an awful lot like picking a convenient god rather than seeing God for how the Bible portrays him.

        Again, that’s your jaded judgement. There are many reasons people move from one church to another. Seasons of life change. A young couple may decide to move to another church after their children reach a certain age because another church offers a better youth or children’s program. People move from one city to another and decide to find a church closer to home. I’m not denying that people leave a church because they disagree with something, of course that happens, I’m not denying that Christians struggle with molding God into what they want him to be, obviously that would be a temptation. That is why staying in the scripture and studying his word is so important. If you want to know who He is, believe Him when He tells you.

        Bob S. – “Knowing that it’s wrong to disobey is a moral conclusion. They had no morals (not having eating of the Tree yet). So they were given a test they couldn’t possibly pass.

        I disagree. It wasn’t a matter of disobeying, it was a matter of not trusting in the goodness of their creator and believing that he truly wanted what was best for them.

        Bob S. -(As if God could’ve been surprised by the end result anyway.)

        You’re absolutely right, of course He wasn’t surprised.

        Bob S. -We’re punished because of Adam’s error??

        “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16).

        In answer to your question. Yes.
        In response to Deuteronomy 24:16, That chapter was referring to punishments being carried out by human hands when someone breaks the law.

        Bob S. – Why search for truth within Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Buddhism or any of a thousand other religions?

        Is that a real question? Obviously you know what response to that would be, so the real question here is; Why are you asking it?

        Bob S. – Why? Homosexual activity is only a ritual abomination (that is, it’s not something that is wrong in and of itself), and the sacrifice of Jesus freed us from all of the ritual requirements.

        And here lies the point of contention at the root of this whole argument. While you are correct, homosexuality was used in pagan rituals, you are wrong in your assumption that it was the only reason it was and is forbidden. The passages in Leviticus that you claim are only referring to rituals also include God’s warning to engage in incest and bestiality. Are you saying we should ignore those too?

        Bob S. – This is a complete tangent, but why is our redemption opt-in? That is, we don’t opt-in to take on Adam’s sin; we get it automatically. Then why don’t we get that sin removed automatically as well?

        We opted out by not having faith, and now through the cross, we are give the opportunity to opt-in by choosing faith.
        And as far as why we were punished for Adam’s sin, I don’t know, you’ll have to ask Him.

        Bob S. – “You still haven’t argued why gaiety should be considered a sin.”

        Because God says so, and since He is the one who defined sin for us in the first place, I’ll take His word on it.

        You’re a strange bird Bob. Clearly you’ve taken some time to study scripture. Why have you decided with such certainty that it’s not the truth? Why are you so certain there is no God? I can’t even begin to wrap my mind around that concept.

  9. 2 Peter 2:1-22 GNT

    False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction. Even so, many will follow their immoral ways; and because of what they do, others will speak evil of the Way of truth. In their greed these false teachers will make a profit out of telling you made-up stories. For a long time now their Judge has been ready, and their Destroyer has been wide awake!
    God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment. God did not spare the ancient world, but brought the flood on the world of godless people; the only ones he saved were Noah, who preached righteousness, and seven other people. God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them with fire, and made them an example of what will happen to the godless. He rescued Lot, a good man, who was distressed by the immoral conduct of lawless people. That good man lived among them, and day after day he suffered agony as he saw and heard their evil actions. And so the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and how to keep the wicked under punishment for the Day of Judgment, especially those who follow their filthy bodily lusts and despise God’s authority.
    These false teachers are bold and arrogant, and show no respect for the glorious beings above; instead, they insult them. Even the angels, who are so much stronger and mightier than these false teachers, do not accuse them with insults in the presence of the Lord. But these people act by instinct, like wild animals born to be captured and killed; they attack with insults anything they do not understand. They will be destroyed like wild animals, and they will be paid with suffering for the suffering they have caused. Pleasure for them is to do anything in broad daylight that will satisfy their bodily appetites; they are a shame and a disgrace as they join you in your meals, all the while enjoying their deceitful ways! They want to look for nothing but the chance to commit adultery; their appetite for sin is never satisfied. They lead weak people into a trap. Their hearts are trained to be greedy. They are under God’s curse! They have left the straight path and have lost their way; they have followed the path taken by Balaam son of Beor, who loved the money he would get for doing wrong and was rebuked for his sin. His donkey spoke with a human voice and stopped the prophet’s insane action.
    These people are like dried-up springs, like clouds blown along by a storm; God has reserved a place for them in the deepest darkness. They make proud and stupid statements, and use immoral bodily lusts to trap those who are just beginning to escape from among people who live in error. They promise them freedom while they themselves are slaves of destructive habits—for we are slaves of anything that has conquered us. If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been much better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and then turn away from the sacred command that was given them. What happened to them shows that the proverbs are true: “A dog goes back to what it has vomited” and “A pig that has been washed goes back to roll in the mud.”

    • GC1: Lot? A good man? The man who wanted to offer his two daughters to the mob? And later had sex with them?

      I’d say that the record is mixed.

      those who follow their filthy bodily lusts and despise God’s authority.

      And who gave them these lusts? How can you despise God’s authority when you follow instincts that he gave you?

      They want to look for nothing but the chance to commit adultery

      Peter must hang out with a different crowd than me! I think he needs to lighten up.

      And, BTW, I’m missing the point of this passage.

  10. Homosexuality is immoral, and I don’t need a bible to tell me that. If homosexuality were to be correct among our species, the universe would of made sure that reproduction was possible through homosexuality. It is not, and it would of been impossible for human life to continue existing if the human was meant to be homosexual. We wouldn’t even being having this conversation. It’s about the circle of life. Humans have gotten so advanced with technology and science that they think they are above the universe and its plan. We can adopt, or have a surrogate, so it helps ease the thought that a penis was not meant to enter a mans behind. It serves no purpose to this planet, other than personal satisfaction, which is what the whole world seems to be interested anyway. I could go into the explanation of why I think homosexuality exists and the the causes it has on a society, but that would take forever. Now do I think it should be banned or made illegal? No. You have your freedom to act immoral and defy the universe. Just don’t give me the speech about how it’s right and should be accepted as normal. It’s not, and we all know it.

    • Daniel:

      If homosexuality were to be correct among our species, the universe would of made sure that reproduction was possible through homosexuality.

      (1) This has nothing to do with morality. (2) Hundreds (perhaps thousands) of animals have homosexuality, and it hasn’t made any of them extinct.

      don’t give me the speech about how it’s right and should be accepted as normal. It’s not, and we all know it.

      I’m giving you a speech arguing that it’s natural (rather than abnormal), like left handedness. It doesn’t hurt anyone, so who cares if someone else is homosexual?

      it would of been impossible for human life to continue existing if the human was meant to be homosexual.

      I’ve written a post that responds to most of your points at the new site. Give that post a read and comment there (this site is a dead end now).

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