The Moon Isn’t Made of Green Cheese … Is It?

A moon made of cheese is cut, and a wedge is pulled awayEaster has recently passed, and I’d like to rerun a post on the resurrection.

In a fable going back centuries within various cultures, a simpleton sees the reflection of the full moon in water and imagines that it’s a wheel of green (that is, young) cheese. It’s a tale that we often pass on to our children and that we discard with time, like belief in the Easter Bunny.

But how do you know that the moon isn’t made of green cheese?

Physicist Sean M. Carroll addressed this question recently. After a few moments exploring physical issues like the moon’s mass, volume, and density and the (dissimilar) density of cheese, he gave this frank broadside:

The answer is that it’s absurd to think the moon is made of green cheese.

He goes on to say that we understand how the planets were formed and how the solar system works. There simply is no reason to suppose that the moon is made of green cheese and plenty of reasons to suppose that it’s not.

This is not a proof, there is no metaphysical proof, like you can prove a statement in logic or math that the moon is not made of green cheese. But science nevertheless passes judgments on claims based on how well they fit in with the rest of our theoretical understanding.

Bringing this thinking into the domain of this blog, how do we know that Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead? The answer is the same: it’s absurd to think that Jesus was raised from the dead.

  • We know how death works. We see it in plants and animals, and we know that when they’re gone, they’re just gone. Rats don’t have souls. Zebras don’t go to heaven. There’s no reason to suppose that it works any differently for our favorite animal, Homo sapiens, and plenty of reasons to suppose that it works the same.
  • We know about ancient manuscripts. Lots of cultures wrote their ancient myths, and many of these are older than the books of the Old Testament: Gilgamesh (Sumerian), Enûma Eliš (Babylonian), Ramayana (Hindu), Iliad (Greek), Beowulf (Anglo-Saxon), Popol Vuh (Mayan), and so on. For whatever reason, people write miracle stories, and we have a large and well-populated bin labeled “Mythology” in which to put stories like those in the Bible.
  • We know about how stories and legends grow with time. We may have heard of Charles Darwin’s deathbed conversion to Christianity (false). Or that a decent fraction of Americans thought that President Obama is a Muslim. Or that aliens crash-landed in Roswell, New Mexico. Or that a new star appeared in the night sky with the birth of North Korea’s Kim Jong Il. In our own time, urban legends so neatly fit a standard pattern, that simple rules help identify them.
  • We know that humans invent religions. There are 42,000 denominations of Christianity alone, for example, and uncountably many versions of the myriad religions invented through history.

Natural explanations are sufficient to explain Christianity.

Might the moon actually be made of cheese? Science doesn’t make unconditional statements, but we can assume the contrary with about as much confidence as we have in any scientific statement.

Might Jesus have been raised from the dead? Sure, it’s possible, but that’s not where the facts point. Aside from satisfying a preconception, why imagine that this is the case?

Photo credit: TV Tropes

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33 thoughts on “The Moon Isn’t Made of Green Cheese … Is It?

  1. http://www.julescashford.eu/the-moon-myth-and-transformation/

    Born out of the dark, the Moon grows to the peak of its powers when, unaccountably, it begins to wither and decay – to ‘fall away,’ as the Bushmen say – until it dies, vanishing back into the darkness from where it came. For three nights the Moon is dead and the sky is black. But on the third day, death is transformed into life; the Moon rises again: it is a ‘New Moon.’ ….

    Finally, the Virgin Mother Mary, often herself called ‘Mother Moon’ in folklore, gives birth to a son who is to be the redeemer of the world, who also dies and descends into hell for three days, the number of days of darkness when the Moon is gone. In the Christian story, Jesus is, as it were, ‘rescued’ by his Father in Heaven, yet, like the others, his return coincides with the time of the Earth’s regeneration. Easter is celebrated on the Sunday following the first Full Moon after the Spring Equinox, so that Christ’s resurrection, like those before him, reflects the turning of winter into spring. …

    • Easter is celebrated on the Sunday following the first Full Moon after the Spring Equinox…

      It’s easy for us modern people to overlook the fact that the religious calendar is lunar.

      If you think about it, the lunar calendar is not linked to the seasons or the solar calendar. In other words, the lunar calendar is not synchronized with the solar calendar. Without constant corrections, the religious calendars would eventually drift, and Passover/Easter would be in autumn.

      This brings up the question of why God would need to use such a messy calendar system? It’s almost as if God didn’t know anything more about how to keep time than the ancient humans did.

  2. Bob we already know you deny the supernatural. As your atheistic naturalistic worldview does not allow the supernatural.
    And we already know the the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
    We have known this for 2,000 years.

    1 Cor.1 :18
    For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who [are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    Maybe someday you will come up with a new argument.

    • Maybe someday you will come up with a new argument.

      Maybe someday you will come up with a new argument.

    • Bob C:

      “Does not allow the supernatural”? I’ll be delighted to accept the supernatural–just show me the compelling evidence, and I’ll have no choice.

      • Let’s not that Bob has to qualify his statement.

        Its not just “show me the evidence, and I’ll have no choice”.

        It’s “show me the compelling evidence”. That’s a big difference. The former is a rational, and reasonable request. The latter is an entirely subjective one. Bob is basically say “Show me evidence that fits my own subjectively derived standards, then I’ll agree”. As I’ve established before, his subjective standard for evidence is so strict that any claim, even a non-supernatural one, would be unable to provide sufficient evidence.

        Bob accepts those claims that fit his atheistic, naturalistic worldview, and rejects all those that do not. It, (and he) is really that simple.

        The sad thing is, Bob thinks he has an open mind while he’s doing it.

        • So I’m the only one who wants compelling evidence? You see a TV show on Bigfoot and that’s all the evidence you need to believe?

          Or do you also need compelling evidence?

        • So I’m the only one who wants compelling evidence? You see a TV show on Bigfoot and that’s all the evidence you need to believe?

          Or do you also need compelling evidence?

          Did I say that you were the only one needing “compelling” evidence? Of course I didn’t. Let’s look at what I actually said (something you consistently fail to do) and let’s review shall we?

          It’s “show me the compelling evidence”. That’s a big difference. The former is a rational, and reasonable request. The latter is an entirely subjective one. Bob is basically say “Show me evidence that fits my own subjectively derived standards, then I’ll agree”. As I’ve established before, his subjective standard for evidence is so strict that any claim, even a non-supernatural one, would be unable to provide sufficient evidence.

          Note, that I’ve never once said that you were the only one in the world who requires “compelling” evidence. What I did say is that the desire for “compelling” evidence, is fundamentally a subjective one. You have no objective standard for what evidence “compels” you, you just find certain thing compelling and not others.

          As I’ve demonstrated time and again, to the atheist, his standard of “compelling” evidence for a supernatural claim is so high, that no claim, even true ones, could ever hope to meet it.

          That is the difference between the skeptic and theist. The theist does not have two standards of evidence (or at least, should not). He / she does not factor in the “extraordinary-ness” of the claim or some perceived “importance” to the claim or whatever other subjective feeling the atheist uses, into what evidence he / she requires for that particular claim. The theist tries to be as objective as possible. Can they be completely objective? Of course not. No one can.

          It is far far better though to strive to be objective, than to take your subjective feelings, biases and prejudices and hold them up as examples of “objectivity”.

        • Did I say that you were the only one needing “compelling” evidence? Of course I didn’t.

          Of course you didn’t. You made the distinction between “evidence” and “compelling evidence,” calling the former “rational and reasonable” and implying that the latter was somehow unreasonable to expect or request.

          You have no objective standard for what evidence “compels” you, you just find certain thing compelling and not others.

          And I will again (apologies for the repetition) wonder out loud how you do things differently. Can it possibly be that you accept any old thing as evidence or do you also have standards and demand compelling evidence?

          The theist does not have two standards of evidence (or at least, should not).

          An admirable policy. That’s how I do it, for example.

        • Of course you didn’t. You made the distinction between “evidence” and “compelling evidence,” calling the former “rational and reasonable” and implying that the latter was somehow unreasonable to expect or request.

          Did I ever say that it was unreasonable? No, I didn’t. I did say that from a skeptic it is unreasonable, due to their biases. As a general rule however, it is not.

          Yet one more case of you not reading what I said, instead choosing to shoe-horn it into a strawman you find convenient.

          An admirable policy. That’s how I do it, for example.

          Actually you don’t.

          For “ordinary” claims, you are fine with any old piece of evidence. For claims that violate your worldview, you now desire “extraordinary” evidence. You whine about how “important” it is and how the normal amount of evidence that another historical claim might have is not enough. You demand “extraordinary” evidence.

          Yet, when I try to pin down the skeptic on what “extraordinary” evidence is, skeptics suddenly get vague.

          I wonder why?

          I understand Bob that you think you are being the entirely reasonable and rational individual, while I’m just the ignorant hick. I wish there was something I could do to show you the error in your ways. Unfortunately, one cannot show a blind man anything.

        • I did say that from a skeptic it is unreasonable, due to their biases.

          What from a skeptic is unreasonable? Expecting to get compelling evidence?

          For “ordinary” claims, you are fine with any old piece of evidence. For claims that violate your worldview, you now desire “extraordinary” evidence.

          Since I have it all wrong, you need to pinch hit for me and inform us how to properly evaluate things. Tell me what kind of evidence you need for these:

          * there’s an asteroid with our name on it, and you have 2 years to live
          * global warming is manmade, and we have to change our ways pronto or else
          * the Jesus story is accurate, and you had better believe or you’ll regret it
          * Plato actually existed as a real person

          Unfortunately, one cannot show a blind man anything.

          Problem solved, now that the man with clear sight is tasked with giving us the truth.

        • What from a skeptic is unreasonable? Expecting to get compelling evidence?

          Well, true, though that’s not what I said. I don’t expect a skeptic to ever give me compelling evidence. Also, when a skeptic says he desires “compelling” evidence for a supernatural claim, he is saying something different that if we wants evidence for a different claim, or if someone with an open mind desires evidence for a supernatural claim.

          Tell me what kind of evidence you need for these:

          We’ve been through this before, and I’m not in the habit of repeating myself.

        • Also, when a skeptic says he desires “compelling” evidence for a supernatural claim, he is saying something different that if we wants evidence for a different claim, or if someone with an open mind desires evidence for a supernatural claim.

          Tell me more. Maybe an example where this curious “skeptic” that you’re referring to and an open-minded person demand different evidence. I’ll let you know which way I would react.

          We’ve been through this before, and I’m not in the habit of repeating myself.

          Translation: I can dish out the demands for evidence, but I can’t take them.

        • Maybe an example where this curious “skeptic” that you’re referring to and an open-minded person demand different evidence.

          Sure. A good example would be anything supernatural. The skeptic demands “extraordinary” evidence before he (or she) is ready to believe in a claim they think is “supernatural”.

          An open minded person (say, myself) would say that a claim of a supernatural event occuring in the past, is just a claim of a past event. As such, I shouldn’t let any bias influence me, and just judge the claim of a supernatural event as a normal event. No “extraordinary” evidence required.

          Translation: I can dish out the demands for evidence, but I can’t take them.

          Oh come on. Are you really so forgetful that you’ve forgotten the times and times and times I dealt with this on the old board? Or are you just being intentionally deceptive in order to further the usual rhetoric?

          Also, stuff like this is incredibly ridiculous, coming from you, who constantly demand evidence from theists, but can barely come up with a valid intelligent argument half of the time, much less evidence to support it.

          I’ve noticed you haven’t addressed what is a simple, simple question on the thread discussing the similarity between Jesus and Osiris. I suspected its because you know that you don’t have much of an intelligent argument and that entire thread was just an exercise in creating a smokescreen.

          It’s nice to know I was right.

        • An open minded person (say, myself) would say that a claim of a supernatural event occuring in the past, is just a claim of a past event. As such, I shouldn’t let any bias influence me, and just judge the claim of a supernatural event as a normal event. No “extraordinary” evidence required.

          So how would you evaluate claims that Sathya Sai Baba (who died recently) raised the dead? Let’s suppose you could find eyewitnesses.

          Or Islam’s claim that Mohammed rose to heaven on a winged horse from Jerusalem (that’s the importance behind the Dome of the Rock shrine). That’s documented in the Koran.

          Are you really so forgetful that you’ve forgotten the times and times and times I dealt with this on the old board?

          What I remember is your saying that this rope-a-dope is your style. Your goal is to ask provocative questions, not answer them. You made the asymmetry very clear.

          I’ve noticed you haven’t addressed what is a simple, simple question on the thread discussing the similarity between Jesus and Osiris. … It’s nice to know I was right.

          (1) We all know that you’re always right.

          (2) Repeat the simple, simple question and I’ll answer it.

        • So how would you evaluate claims that Sathya Sai Baba (who died recently) raised the dead? Let’s suppose you could find eyewitnesses.

          Or Islam’s claim that Mohammed rose to heaven on a winged horse from Jerusalem (that’s the importance behind the Dome of the Rock shrine). That’s documented in the Koran.

          What part of “As such, I shouldn’t let any bias influence me, and just judge the claim of a supernatural event as a normal event. ” do you not understand?

          Your goal is to ask provocative questions, not answer them.

          No. My goal is to examine the arguments and claims made by skeptics, and not to make my own arguments in defense of Christianity. That’s what I’ve said before. As per usual, you have to twist it, because you can’t deal with it in a reasonable, rational manner. Skepticism cannot stand against its own tactics.

        • What part of “As such, I shouldn’t let any bias influence me, and just judge the claim of a supernatural event as a normal event. ” do you not understand?

          The part where the rubber meets the road. Take this enlightened thinking for a test drive and show us how it works on some examples.

          All your whining for evidence from me and you can’t provide a little bit yourself?

          My goal is to examine the arguments and claims made by skeptics, and not to make my own arguments in defense of Christianity. That’s what I’ve said before.

          I’m glad to have that asymmetry made clear. I think the “you can dish it out but you can’t take it” still applies.

  3. In John 20:17, why does Jesus say, “Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”?

    Didn’t Jesus know that He was going to see the Disciples again before He ascended?

    Also in John 20:17, why does Jesus say, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.”?

    But we read in Matt 28:9, there is absolutely no problem with the women holding on to Jesus: “They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.”

    • Also in John 20:17, why does Jesus say, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.”?

      But we read in Matt 28:9, there is absolutely no problem with the women holding on to Jesus: “They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.”

      One might assume that in John 20:17 he is not talking about physically holding on to him.

      But, perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps Retro can post something from a theological consensus that makes it clear that in John 20:17 when he speaks of “holding on to him” he is speaking of a physical act, and not a mental one.

      • One might assume that in John 20:17 he is not talking about physically holding on to him.

        First of all, these passages in John and Matthew are supposed to be parallel accounts. Why should we expect that one passage would speak of touching in a physical sense while the other one speaks of it in a spiritual sense?

        Perhaps Retro can post something from a theological consensus that makes it clear that in John 20:17 when he speaks of “holding on to him” he is speaking of a physical act, and not a mental one.

        Read all of the commentaries at the bottom of this page. The majority of these commentaries deal with Mary touching Jesus in the physical sense.

        http://bible.cc/john/20-17.htm

        Wikipedia has a list of explanations that have been proposed to solve this difficulty:

        Jesus’ wounds were still sore so he did not like being touched.

        Kraft proposes that the prohibition was because it was against ritual to touch a dead body.

        Chrysostom and Theophylact argue that Jesus was asking that more respect be shown to him. This theory is sometimes linked to the notion that while it was not appropriate for a woman to touch Jesus it was fine for a man like Thomas.

        C. Spicq sees the resurrected Jesus as the equivalent of one of the Jewish high priests who should not be sullied by physical contact.

        Kastner, who believes Christ returned in the nude, believes the prohibition was so that Mary would not be tempted by Jesus’ body.

        Mary should not touch Jesus because she should not need physical proof of the resurrection but should trust in her faith.

        Bultman sees the phrase as an indirect way of saying that the resurrected Jesus was not at this point tangible.

        According to Moule Jesus’ intervention is not a prohibition on being touched, but rather an assurance that the touching is not needed for he had not yet returned to the Father and was still firmly here on Earth. His use of the present tense is said to mean that he should not be touched just at this moment, but could be touched in future.

        Some link it with the next verse stating that they should be read as one to say “don’t touch me instead go tell my disciples of the news”

        In John Calvin’s commentary he argues that Jesus did not forbid simple touching, but rather that Jesus had no problems until the women began to cling to him as though they were trying to hold him in the corporeal world at which point Jesus told them to let go. Some translations thus use touch for the seemingly permitted actions in Mark and cling for the action Jesus chides Mary for in this verse.

        Barrett mentions the possibility that between this verse and John 20:22 Jesus fully ascends to heaven

        So then, it doesn’t seem like there is any theological consensus on the meaning of this verse, but the majority use the physical sense of the word “touch”.

        But, perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps Retro can post something…

        I noticed you didn’t bother to post anything at all to back up your assumption.

        • I’m actually surprised. Something valid enough that I’ll actually have to deal with it with some level of examination beyond 5 minutes of a google search.

          It’s rare to find that.

        • Something valid enough that I’ll actually have to deal with it with some level of examination beyond 5 minutes of a google search.

          It may be useful to see how the Greek word for “touch” is used in other places. Here’s every place in the New Testament where the Greek word “haptomai” is used.

          http://concordances.org/greek/strongs_680.htm

        • I noticed you didn’t bother to post anything at all to back up your assumption.

          I think RRF prefers drive-bys. Easier and probably more fun, too.

        • I think RRF prefers drive-bys. Easier and probably more fun, too.

          Actually since I never made an assumption, I never needed to support it. You see Bob, asking Retro to support his claim, is not the same as making a claim of my own.

          And you know what? This time he actually did, and did so in a way that has actually forced me to go back and actually do some looking around / research.

          Something your “hammering” never even got close to doing. You could learn a lot from Retro on that.

  4. Also in John 20:17, why does Jesus say, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.”?

    But we read in Matt 28:9, there is absolutely no problem with the women holding on to Jesus: “They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.”

    Again no contradiction. Matt does not mention every detail John did..Where is the contradiction? Each Gospel writer tells the events in there style, but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is called telescoping look it up! The theologian and apologist Dr. James White explains this.

    • How can “do not hold me” and “they clasped him” not be a contradiction? Or do we assume that the full story is that Jesus said “Don’t do that!” and then his followers did it anyway?

      • Or do we assume that the full story is that Jesus said “Don’t do that!” and then his followers did it anyway?

        We even have places where the resurrected Jesus told people to touch Him. (Luke 24:39)

  5. Retro,

    Also on pages 350 and 351 on Gleason Archer’s book on Bible difficulties he explains the whole “Touching” Jesus issue. Will you believe it? Not unless God opens your heart to see the truth.

    As I have told you think the cross of Christ is “foolishness” As we are told in 1 Cor 1:18. And as I have told you your problem is you are a child of wrath. You know God but reject Him in unrighteousness. You need to repent of your sins, and stop judging the Creator. You need to ask God to forgive you and open your heart to His Glory.

    • I looked up that reference (yes, I have Archer’s book as well), but it doesn’t address the touching question. It ignores the verses about Jesus warning people not to touch him. Too hard to explain away, perhaps? If I missed it, give me the quote.

      You need to repent of your sins, and stop judging the Creator.

      Why did the Creator give me a brain that demands evidence if I’m just supposed to be a yes-man and accept it because you told me?

    • Also on pages 350 and 351 on Gleason Archer’s book on Bible difficulties he explains the whole “Touching” Jesus issue.

      With the version I have, it is on pages 355 and 356:

      It was only for a brief moment that she touched Him; for He gently withdrew Himself from her, saying, “Don’t keep touching Me [the negative imperative me mou haptou implies discontinuance of an action already begun], for I have not yet ascended to My Father.” Whether He did so later that afternoon and then returned afterward to speak to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus and the rest of the group back in Jerusalem that evening is not altogether clear. But if Mary was asked not to touch Him at this point in the day and the disciples were freely permitted to touch Him that evening, it must be inferred that He did report briefly back to God the Father in heaven before returning to earth once more for His postresurrection forty-day ministry.

      First of all, WHY wasn’t anyone supposed to touch Jesus?

      Second, according to the Bible, people DID touch Jesus, so whatever the reason they weren’t supposed to touch Him, it didn’t really seem to matter when they did.

      Third, look at how convoluted Gleason’s explanation is:

      Nevertheless Jesus did not make His ascent to heaven at this precise moment, for He waited around long enough to meet with the other two women who had earlier accompanied Magdalene to the tomb at daybreak. Apparently Mary the mother (or wife) of James, and Salome with her, had decided to go back once more to visit the empty tomb. Presumably they noticed that Mary Magdalene had slipped away again after conferring with Peter and John, and they must have guessed where she had gone. Very soon after Magdalene had left Jesus and headed back toward the city (but not so soon that they actually met one another on the way), the two women drew near to the same spot where they had encountered the two angels on their first visit

      We must assume multiple visits to the tomb, with people coming and going, but not bumping into each other along the way. Mary Magdelene “slipped away”. The explanation is filled with words like “apparently” and “presumably”.

      Should the explanation be more difficult than the difficulty it is supposed to explain?

  6. Pingback: introspection, courage, and shame « JRFibonacci's blog: partnering with reality

  7. I think TheRealRandomFunction misunderstands what makes a claim extraordinary. It’s not because it is a rare, it is because the explanation of it goes against a scientific consensus. To say a claim needs extraordinary evidence is only to say that the evidence needs to be well-attested enough to overcome whatever well-attested consensus the claim is contradicting.

    Furthermore, the phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” is really just clever wordplay which equivocates between two different meanings of extraordinary. You might as well reject the statement “Be open-minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out” on the grounds that it’s literally impossible for a brain to fall out.

    Humans are able to illustrate important points by using clever language. To reject an important point by taking the phrase literally is to be unreasonably pedantic.

    By the way, it’s May 13th. TheRealRandomFunction has had more than a month to reply to Retro. He wasn’t kidding when he said it would take longer than a 5 minute Google search.

    • That thinking makes sense to me.

      TheRealRandomFunction has had more than a month to reply to Retro. He wasn’t kidding when he said it would take longer than a 5 minute Google search.

      Not entirely his fault. He was recently banned for being unable to focus his comments on the issues at hand (as you might see if you browse some of his comments).

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